the "crossless gospel « Result #1 on Nov 23, 2008, 9:28pm »
Has anyone heard of the "crossless" gospel. It is a presentation of the gospel that leaves out important parts.
Oh, I see there is a "free grace" forum. Perhaps I should have posted this there. I'm new.
I should study the message board before posting.
I don't know, maybe this is the right forum for the question. The crossless gospel is when a preacher says something like "believe in Jesus for eternal life" but doesn't mention exactly who Jesus is nor His work in salvation. Doesn't mention, like, that Jesus is God, that Jesus is human, that He is the substitute for us, that He died on the cross and rose again. You know, the gospel that the Brethren have been preaching for years.
Subject Matter: This forum was built for those of Christian religion and those who are curious about the Christian religion.
There are places to debate not only about Christianity, but about every day life and politics. You may tell of your personal experience, coming to know God so that others may be inspired through your story. We have a role playing area for those of you who may enjoy such things; and a main role play that will be opened when there is enough interest and activity. If you are in need of counseling we have a board where you may seek help with your problems be it a religious doubt or any sort of personal pain we will offer whatever aid we are able to provide. If you are an author we also have an area for you to show your latest works.
(I saw no place to advertise and so I assume it would not be too much of a pain for me to post this here? Also, what is the difference between this board and the "New Threads" board?)
Re: The Da Vinci Code - Should we be concerned? « Result #3 on Apr 27, 2008, 12:25am »
I have never seen or read this story because I know my limits. I understand that if it looks real to me I may eventually believe that it is true so I venture away from the things that I think may lead me into ungodly waters. I can not say much for its content since I have never actually witnessed it, but I can say this: If you are uncertain how you will cope with a fictional story that has Christian things in it and yet is fictional then do not get involved because it may turn out to be your downfall.
Re: Salvation « Result #4 on Apr 27, 2008, 12:20am »
To be completely honest with you I believe that in order to be saved you must do all of those (Minus baptism... and I don't understand what is meant by "coming forward or alter call") but I also think that there is something more to it. I'm not entirely sure what it is, but my gut tells me its there and its something that most of us overlook. It says in the bible that when we die there will be many that say "Lord lord did I not prophisy in your name?" and he will reply "I never knew you." and it is my belief that this is because of some hidden thing within the pages of the bible or even within our own hearts that most of us do not fully understand.
Re: Sole Condition For Salvation « Result #5 on Jan 8, 2008, 10:40am »
Greg
At one point you threatened to have one of my posts removed because it was so long, without even asking me to remove it (which showed me your judgmental nature). I see that there's been only one post since you an i have talked, the rest is wind and tumbleweeds. In spite of your objection to my "long" post (not even your own long posts), this place has no activity; i doubt i would have taken much time from non-existent participants.
Nevertheless, i received no call from you even though i sent two phone cards to tom stegall for you...no problem...if you want to go to a message board supported by the Lord's Church, full of heavy traffic (even with some of your persuasion) then please go to Jackevansonline.com and join in. All are welcome.
p.s.
the only reason i'm on this site again is you never contacted me.
Re: The Da Vinci Code - Should we be concerned? « Result #7 on Oct 4, 2007, 1:07am »
It's a novel, so as being a work of fiction, it should be taken with a grain of salt.
I don't get what you're saying by "many do not realize its fictional extent", I would hope that no one who was literate would fail to make the distinction between a novel and a factual book.
Re: Sole Condition For Salvation « Result #8 on Aug 19, 2007, 7:09pm »
Greg
my post is so long, because your post is long...i try to respond to each point you made, while in turn giving you a rebuttle...you ask for me to respond one verse at a time...then you should do likewise...if you notice you gave back-2-back LONG posts, therefore if you want me to write less then you must do the same..
anyway...my last post was my LAST...
If you want to contact me my e-mail is darrell_mungo@comcast.cable.com...send me an email with your number...or i will give you mine...if you cannot afford a call to Michigan i will mail phone cards attn: to you at the building you meet at on Sunday.
Re: Sole Condition For Salvation « Result #9 on Aug 18, 2007, 3:30pm »
Darrell, I understand that you said your above post is your last, but would you be interested in corresponding about one passage at a time? I tried to narrow the focus into a manageable discussion by addressing your comments on a specific verse, John 3:16. Again, your latest post is long-winded and brings up many verses in proof-text style that really do not allow us to consider the context of the passage. I believe you are making many false assumptions in your quotation of verses that you think support your various points. I would be more than happy to correspond with you on any of these passages, but to do that, we would have to talk about ONE at a time. Or we could talk about ONE specific issue at a time (e.g. what is the difference between "works" in Eph. 2:9 and the "works" you believe are necessary for salvation). You could pick the verse.
Re: Sole Condition For Salvation « Result #10 on Aug 16, 2007, 10:01pm »
Greg
This is my last post...so read it carfully...if you post again i will read it but like i said in my second post to you...that this would not go on long...for either you respond to the truth or you don't
Darrell Mungo
Thank you for trying to explain how Jesus' death for our sins relates to your understanding of salvation. However, you still did not mention how Jesus' death for our sins relates to salvation, what it accomplished, or how Christ's death can save us personally. (your quote)
? if you need clarification ask.
You said salvation is available to whosoever will "look to Him as the captain of their soul." I am not sure what you mean that it is "available" to those who look to Him "as the captain of their soul," but it appears to me that [b][b]this vagueness allows you to continue to say that men can be saved by doing "good works" that are "stipulated" by God and that people must be saved by "faith-led acts of obedience [that] are acceptable to the Father of Creation".
A) (first block) when Christ died all were still lost, salvation is available and must be complied with...I don't understand how i can be any clearer.
B) (second block) First of all i was very clear...and i don't know where you got the idea that i in any sense of the word am being vague or am tip-toeing around the fact that obedience is necessary for one to get into heaven...my last post wasn't vague...you must look at me how you look at your doctrin...I don't say works ALONE, nor do i say works ALONE.
In the post where you said, "Therefore, I'm going to ask the administrator to remove this copy of the previous post you already made. Speaking of not reading what has already been posted," and, "Otherwise, if you simply want to post long-winded arguments for own view, that's not welcome here." it seemed that here you were good at characterizing, like you accused me of in the chase with the post concerning the word, STRIVE....and likewise here...if you don't fully understand the Scriptures i give you then ask for clarification, don't imply that I'm being elusive...if you knew men in person you would understand this...however it seems that when you don't understand something, you tend to look for the worst...i hate to have to vindicate myself, but this isn't' the first time you did this.
Anyway...sigh
Christ vindicated God's righteousness through his life, God's justice through his death, and the Fulfillment of God's promises, love and adoration through his resurrection. Rom 3:26/1 john 4:9-11/Rom 5:8/Ro 16:25-27 (my quote, last post).
It is particularly interesting you said that "Christ vindicated God's righteousness through His life..." In the verses you cited, the only verse that mentioned God's righteousness is Romans 3:26:
Romans 3:23-26: For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, (26) to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (your quote and response to my quote above)
Greg...pay attention to what i wrote in my quote i mentioned God's righteousness, his vindicated justice, and the fulfillment of his promises. Of course all of the verses don't talk about his righteousness, because i mentioned two other things...like i said in my past post, when you missed the obvious fact that i was new to this process, which should have been obvious then and even now...a little discernment please.
"What you are saying sounds familiar to me as a former Catholic," (your quote)
And I'm not surprised, for it seems that in your quest for the truth you overshot the mark.
Please don't confuse me with what believe, the Bible, with reams of extra-biblical false-doctrines and man-worship.
Greg...in terms of what romans, eph, tit, col, phil, are talking about is the law of Moses and not that of Christ's commands are IN CHRIST...THE LAW of Moses is not...for no one is ever in the bible commanded to live like a Christian if they are not In Him (Christ is Superior to Moses...to all). The law of moses is blotted out, the law of Christ is not. Under the law there was no remission of sins under Christ there is...You are saying that Christ is just like moses...you say that I'm not good enough, and I'm not...i cannot live up to the righteous, legal, standards of the law of MOSES...every characteristic you point out in terms of obedience is talking about the law of moses...Romans is right and i believe romans, but when you equate Christ law of love with the commands with moses law and man-made ordinances and rigorousness, thats a red flag.
You try to separate Christs commands from him,"I'm still wondering if you can explain how Jesus Christ's death for our sins factors into your view of salvation." (your quote) "Thank you for trying to explain how Jesus' death for our sins relates to your understanding of salvation. However, you still did not mention how Jesus' death for our sins relates to salvation, what it accomplished, or how Christ's death can save us personally." (your quote).
Do you know what's sad about this Greg? The reason you didn't understand what i wrote on my last post, is because you separate Christ commands from him...all of his commands that i cited before you wrote the above are OF HIM and IN HIM...Yet when in romans it talks about works of the Law of Moses YOU add, works OF ALL KINDS, when it is obvious that the Law of Moses is in question, for the people in romans, gal, eph, col, tit, phil, weren't warned about keeping the commands of Christ...Only the Law of Moses and man-made ordinances that were not of him...sounds like you left one group that preaches man-made additives for another.
"Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honor to the satisfying of the flesh." this is in reference to the law of moses in this passage, but ANY man-made additives are self-imposed curses.
(bible says) We ARE justified by faith...(you say) we are justified by faith ALONE.
(bible says) We are not justified by the deeds of the law...(you say) we are not justified by the deeds of ANY law, even Christ's.
don't put the Lords commands on the same level with the Moses or his law...why...first; even thought it is God's righteousness standard, it is weak through us, and therefore a useless redemptive tool because we are sinners...second; you compare it with man-made ordiances...the former two are NOT in him, Christ's commands ARE in him.
YOU CANNOT COMPARE CHRIST COMMANDS TO MOSES, Heb ch 2.
"If your hope is grounded on obedience to God's commands (whether the Mosaic law or what you think is the law of Christ in the NT), you do not need a "pretty good" relative measure of obedience--you need 100% perfect obedience." (your quote)
ABSOLUTELY (the bold), for when i sin IN CHRIST, i have the forgiveness of sins when repent and ask. Acts 8:18-24...in the LAW OF MOSES was strictly LEGAL...CHRIST'S LAW IS FOUNDED ON MERCY...
In your next post will you still compare Moses to Christ?
Romans 3:22-24 ...For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
The passage completely and utterly contradicts the idea that men are justified through faith-led acts of obedience. That very suggestion is tantamount to attributing justification to a relative measure of righteousness produced through the sinner. But in this verse, we find the pronouncement of "justified!" is made upon sinners among whom "THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (your quote)
The law of Moses is in question in Romans...
"Did God say "look ALONE?" (your quote) no he didn't say that, but nether did he give any other commands concerning the redemption of the snake...
if there is not Alone, you have to take everything on the subject...unlike the snake where there is no other commands written, you take justified by faith, and reject passages like romans 2:7 which is as clear as you can get...if he said it, in the new covenant it is binding, not VOLUME, but truth...
"When you introduce faith-led works or faithfulness as a condition for salvation, you must not only deal with John 3:16 but all of these categories of parallel verses that predicate salvation upon the sole condition of faith in such a way that involving works would contradict the passage." None of those passages says at the point of belife...again you add, "at the point of...the SOLE condition of." if the bible gives a truth don't add to it to suit you. when the bible mentions the means of eternal life i talk all it says, and not men's additives. You seek to convert me into adding to God's word...and into ,"Even keeping Christ's commands have nothing to do with salvation," "...he that believeth on the Son HATH everlasting life..." (John 3:36) Mt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of d**nation. Ro 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Ro 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Greg you emphatically say that works/commands (of Christ/In Christ) have nothing to do with obedience but the above says clearly, without doubt to the contray...if you believe the bible why would you try to lead me astry...i trust Gods word and not you
"Romans 3:22-24 ...For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
The passage completely and utterly contradicts the idea that men are justified through faith-led acts of obedience. That very suggestion is tantamount to attributing justification to a relative measure of righteousness produced through the sinner. But in this verse, we find the pronouncement of "justified!" is made upon sinners among whom "THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (your quote)
Yes between Jew and gentil...The Jews don't have the market cornered on God, so no one has to keep the Law...NO one has to pass through the Law like the Jews as if they are a step behind them in the process of redemption...this has nothing to do with the commands of Christ...in fact, every time you bring that up, try to remember that the Jews were being rebuked...don't try to take The law of Christ and dump it in with the Law of Moses and all other kinds of man-made creations as if Christ's commands belongs in that religious gumbo.
"This is the principle of God's judgment executed on the day of wrath. As many as have "sinned" will perish, whether they are condemned by "the law" given to Israel or "law" written in the hearts and consciences of Gentiles. The bottom line is, when God judges the world on the basis of rendering to each man according to his deeds, every man will perish. The principle of Romans 2:7 that you are basing your hope upon is stated justed a few verses later: "not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God but the doers of the law" (2:13). Woe to you! Woe! You have no hope of escaping hell on the principle Paul is outlining here. That is his point. That is why he says, "by the deeds of the law, no flesh shall be justified in His sight" (3:20). Again, the principle of 2:13 is exactly that of Rom. 10:5: "the man who does those things shall live by them" and Galatians 3:12, "The law is not of faith, but 'the man who does them shall live by them.'" In Romans 2:7, your hope of God rendering you eternal life on the basis of your "patient continuance in doing good" is answered by 2:11-13: you have no hope. It is answered by 3:9-20: you have no hope. It is answered by this: Galatians 3:10-12 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT CONTINUE IN ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM." 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "THE MAN WHO DOES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." (your quote)
THE LAW OF MOSES!
Ro 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Ro 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Ro 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; the bold phrase always spokent in the Christian age...used as a present example
under the period of the law he further uses to prove his point RI 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law Ro 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Greg...i believe the bible...Romans 2:7 still shows that patient consistency in Good works equals honor, immortality eternal life...you are trying to steer me from that truth...but you cannot get anymore direct than this verse.
i think you are looking at me through the filters of your philosophy...since YOU BELIEVE IN FAITH ALONE YOU THINK I BELIEVE IN WORKS ALONE...no, unlike you i don't talk a passage and pervert it...
I believe its save to say that you believe that obedience to God has nothing to do with your salvation....but thats what the bible says...
Faith in Christ means that you use Christ as your beacon in ALL things, not faith Alone...I trust Christ in ALL things...not simply in my head...as if the sum total of faith/trust is what happens in your brain...No it means faithfullness...it means to utterly use God as your guide...You on the other hand, limit trust in God to a simple thought process ALONE.
YOU MUST TRUST HIM...
Greg salvation by knowledge is Gnostecism...
"There are many other points I could share with you, but I hope this will suffice for you to change your mind. I am praying that you will see the clear and simple truth that I am sharing with you, the clear and simple plain meaning of John 3:16. I am praying you will see that His death satisfactorily paid for our sin, and by His resurrection, He offers eternal life as a free gift by faith in Him alone. He does not offer to help you work to somehow outweigh the sin He purged Himself with His one sacrifice for sin forever."
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of d**nation.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Mt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments (not perfectly, faithfully)
you are lying to me, and seeking to lead me astay...you ignore these verses, you add ALONE, AND ONLY...where it is not, and you create a contradiction...you say the Law of Moses and all man-made commands/works, are equal to the commands of Christ...and if you deny this then why do you directly compare them when you go to romans and other places WHICH ARE TAKING ABOUT THE LAW OF MOSES, and try to convince me that they are the same thing??!!
TAKE ROMANS, COR, EPH, GAL, PHIL, COL, and see and do a side-by-side comparison to the Law of Christ and the Law of Moses and man made laws and see what you come up with...do you best to drag down the commands of Christ which are IN HIM, and see if you can learn anything...
NOTICE, i never add ONLY, or ALONE in the margins of the word of God YOU DO...and when i bring in passages that show that a man's behavior plays a direct roll in his eternal destiny...your reject it WHY? BECAUSE YOU ADDED TO THE WORD OF GOD...WOE, WOE, WOE TO YOU GREG...YOU ADDED NOT ME, AND YOU ARE GOING TO ANSWER TO GOD FOR THAT AND NOT ME...
"P.S. If someone asked me to briefly explain how Christ's death relates to my salvation, I would say this: It is the very ground of my salvation. I am a sinner and Christ paid my sin debt in full. There was nothing left for me to pay, and there never will be anything left for me to pay. I never had to do anything in regards to my sin to get saved. I don't get saved by offering faith-led works to outweigh my sin, I don't get saved by sinning less, I don't get saved from hell by turning from my sin," (your quote)
by the way, i figured it was a matter of time before you went off into Protestant-ism gargon...
By the way Grace is from the prospective of the law of Moses...man is guilty, condemed...therefore ANY provision set up for a man to be freed from the penalty even if the judge requires a billion (hyperbole) requirements.
This is my last post, greg...like i told you in my second post to you this would not go on long, tit 3:9-11
I URGE YOU...to reject this man-made humility and will-worship Col 2:23, and come to the truth...seek God, not these man-made philosophies that sound good to you...
it doesn't surprise me how you think, for the Jehovah's witness use the same bible (well at least they started with it, and some still use it) to say that Jesus isn't God with direct passages...1 cor 13 poits out the cessation of miraculous, spiritual gifts, and it says it only once in the NT, and yet thousands, perhaps millions believe to the contray...so I'm not surprised that YOU reject the idea of the necessity of obedience...if Satan would stop someone he would have you do anything in your power to reject truth...adding ALONE...for instance, shrugging a shoulder at God's Divine command, and deceiving his those who wan truth by blurting out a laundry-list of man-made sayings (Protestant-isms).
Find you nearest church of Christ, the body of Christ and do his will...you may like those around you, but if you reject his will by teaching this doctrine, (God NEVER dealt with men by faith ALONE)...DON'T BE A FALSE WATCHMAN TELLING PEOPLE NO DANGER, WHEN DESTRUCTION IS AT THE WALL...
YOU'VE HEARD THE TRUTH
BELIEVE IT john 3:16
Repent Acts 2:38
Confess Rom 10:9
be baptized for the remission of your sins Acts 22:16
Ro 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:Ro 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Greg...which one of Christ commands are not Truth? (rhetorical)
Ps 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness
Ps 31:23 O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.
notice David didn't say faith ALONE, but faithfull, why becasue he knew nothing about faith ALONE.
My dad is an elder in the Church and i don't care if he, my mother the evangelist or anyone teaches false doctrine for they will answer to the Lord...i follow his word...so if i would reject them if they did the same...you think i would fallow you because you teach what you teach, based off of a series of un-biblical un-truthes...again you heard the truth...if you
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